Master: This is the first interview I have agreed to give in twenty years. I don’t give. You see, we can’t blame them. This [referring to the press] is like squeezing the lemon, throwing away the juice and presenting its rind as the true fruit. Excuse me, I hope you won’t include this [chuckles], but this is my view of the press.

Reporter: [Inaudible]

Master: And today the press is only sensationalist in nature. A rape, a murder, an abduction, you know. Some stupid politician who has just escaped assassination and that will be on the front page.

Reporter: [Inaudible]

Master: Sir, I am a Brahmin, I am a Hindu, I am also related to your family in a distant way.

Abhyasi: It is a vicious circle, because it is more and more like this.

Master: And because you are from The Hindu, I have even agreed to this much; illaatta naan paakamaaten [otherwise I wouldn’t meet]. Not your fault, it is newspaper policy you see. You are only a reporter. As a man of God I can pray. Where is the assurance that the prayer will be answered? Illaya? [Isn’t it?] That’s up to Him. Just like that; you put it, what they publish is their business. And you have an editorial policy, you have this, you have that, so many things and unfortunately where, for instance, The Hindu is concerned, they are also religious people—the editors. They don’t think much of things like spirituality—I know.

My Guruji’s name was Ram Chandraji—Shri Ram Chandra of Shahjahanpur. He was born in 1899. He joined his guru, who was also called, coincidentally, Ram Chandra of Fatehgarh, a place in Uttar Pradesh. He met him in his twenty-second year. That is around 1921, I suppose. And he had hardly ten years together with him, during which period he met him hardly ten times, as he says. And he picked up this special brand of spirituality from him. And our Adi Guru [Shri Ram Chandra of Fatehgarh], who passed away in 1931, made an inter-communication in 1944 or ’45 from the brighter world, as we call it, and nominated him [Shri Ram Chandra of Shahjahanpur] as his successor. And he [Shri Ram Chandra of Shahjahanpur] founded Shri Ram Chandra Mission in 1945. So today, we have celebrated sixty years—diamond jubilee. So, this is the brief history of the Mission.

In 1974, when my Guruji was seriously ill, and had just recovered from almost going off to the brighter world himself, he nominated me as his successor. When he attained mahasamadhi, I took over the Mission and I am still here running it. But to be amply protecting the interest on the future of the Mission, to make sure it has the same leadership, I have nominated Mr. Ajay Bhatter to succeed me when I vacate my position. This is the brief story of why we are here and how we are here.

Reporter: How many members of the Mission are in India and abroad?

Master: Well, today we had about twenty-six thousand members here for this celebration. About one thousand from abroad—different countries—and the rest from India. Thousand from abroad is a big number. As far as membership is concerned, you know, we don’t charge any membership fees—not at all—zero. So we don’t maintain strict membership records, because we don’t have to remind members, “You have to pay this membership fee.” Here, mostly membership is free, food is free, accommodation is free, except on big occasions like this when we charge a modest amount per day to cover, because we have to hire tents, we have to hire generators, and all this infrastructure is very expensive. So we have a small donor contribution. Otherwise in most of our ashrams everything is free. What we charge for is for books.

Reporter: During these sixty years, what transformation, and what kind of change has your Mission done?

Master: Oh, we cannot talk of a global change like that, you see. Global change will come only through individual change. See, suppose you feed one thousand people on Mahatma Gandhi’s birthday—have you fed the whole of the hungry population of the world? It is a token. But that is not a lasting change, because that is a physical change. Here we are bringing spiritual change which induces moral change, change in your outlook on responsibility, on your duty, on your culture. People become, shall we say, more honest from inside, not because the police say so or the law says so. We produce more moral individuals, not because they are told, “Do this, do that”—not like that. From inside, the change comes. My Guruji said, “We first become normal human beings.”

One of the famous sayings of my Guru is: “A man is born as a human being and dies as an animal.” We ensure that he is born a human being, becomes a pucca [perfect] human being, and then goes towards divinized human being. This is the progress as far as the individual is concerned. And now if you spread this, and more and more individuals get changed, there is going to be a big change, isn’t it? You know, if one politician changes, will he not have some influence in the Rajya Sabha or Lok Sabha? Maybe one word, but somebody will listen to it. Unfortunately, we are depending on religion. But people go to religion only to seek for themselves.

‘May I be re-elected. May my son become the next MP.’ So religion has not helped—because religion promises you what you pray for. Isn’t it? What does religion say? “Whatever you wish for, may the Lord bless you with it.” Adaane solradhu religion le? [That is what religion says, isn’t it?]

Reporter: Yes.

Master: Here we say, “You have to change yourself, because you have created yourself as you are.” You are responsible for what you are and therefore you will be responsible for what you can become, and it is your duty and your responsibility to yourself to become that.

Reporter: What is Sahaj Marg and how is it different from other forms of meditation?

Master: You know, I will tell you what I tell many of these Western people. We say we eat. I am eating, you are also eating. The cow is eating. The dog is eating. What are we eating? Eating is a common term for an act of taking in food. [But] it is different. Meditation is a common term for applying the mind. Now suppose you are, as the old texts say, “You become what you meditate upon.” Suppose I am meditating on power, I become powerful. You see this in our Ramayana, Mahabharata, where they pray to Shiva or Brahma and get the astras [weapons]. Did they help themselves? No. So, that again—God is like a dispensing machine. You put in one rupee: chocolate, cigarette, Pepsi, you know. You press the button, you get what you want.

In fact, in the Mahabarata, at one place towards the end, Lord Krishna asks Brahma, “Why are you so free with your Brahmaastra?” You know that particular episode, where Drona’s son shoots off the Brahmaastra to finish off the last possible birth to the Pandavas—Ashvatthama. Arjuna also fires. Vyasa stops both and says, “Withdraw your weapons.” Arjuna bows and withdraws. Ashvatthama refuses. What happened to him? At that moment Krishna asks Brahma, “Why do you do it?” He says, “When they pray and when they do tapasya [askesis], I am bound to grant what they ask.”

Gods have no discrimination in giving you what you want. No god says, “My son, you have done hundred years tapasya. This is not good for you, ask for something else.” Guru will not give you what is not good for you. This is the difference between God and Guru. Therefore, our Shastra says, guruh brahmaa gurur vishnu gurur devo mahesvarah | guruh saakshaat param brahma. [I offer my salutations to that guru who is Brahma the Creator, Vishnu the Sustainer and Shiva the Destroyer, and who is verily the Ultimate God.] But being a human being, he has intelligence and a heart which guide his work on earth. “God creates, guru administers,” let us say. Or gurus administer.

Reporter: What is the basic concept of Sahaj Marg? How do you define Sahaj Marg?

Master: Mind is the most potent instrument in creation. In fact, the human being is supposed to be called the manushya, because he possesses manas [mind]. One who has manas is a manushya. The mind is the cause of both our destruction and our possible evolution. The Veda says, “Mana eva manushyaanaam kaaranam bandhamokshayoh” both. Meditation teaches you, trains you, to bring the mind under your regulation. To put it very simply, we are now slaves of our mind. Someone says, “Let us go and see the cinema,” and off we go. We are slaves of our mind; meditation makes us masters of our mind. This is what Master means—one who has regulation over his mind, who can use his mind as his instrument, rather than be an instrument of his mind.

Reporter: To practise Sahaj Marg, one does not have to abandon his normal life?

Master: No, no, in fact I think Sahaj Marg is the only system of sadhana which is for grihasthas [householders]. We don’t support brahmacharya in the traditional sense of celibacy. Because my guru said, “God is not a fool to create two sexes if one were enough.” So there is a purpose to sex. What is the right purpose—that society does not teach us. It believes that marriage will ensure that it will be properly used. But it is not. Marriage is only legalised sex. It doesn’t make it moral sex. Moral sex means, both must be willing, both must want it; it must be spontaneous, natural, coming out of love. In the modern world, like the mind has made us our slaves, we have equated sex with love. If you have sex, you are in love. Illaya? [Isn’t it?]

Reporter: How does one begin the Sahaj Marg practice?

Master: We have what we call three sittings and what we call preceptors. Most of them here are preceptors. They are people empowered by the guru, to do the training. There again, this is perhaps the only system where there is not just one guru but people appointed by him, authorized by him, empowered by him, to do his work. In Shri Ram Chandra Mission, we have about three thousand preceptors worldwide. So, my Master—when he first went to Denmark in 1972, somebody asked him, a press reporter like you there, he said, “Why do you come here?” He said, “So that you may not come to me any more.” I create preceptors so that you don’t have to run to India for spirituality. Spirituality I put right where you are.” That is one of the unique features of Sahaj Marg.

Reporter: In the present context, there are many people who call themselves gurus. How do you distinguish between gurus and Master?

Master: No, you see, guru in Sanskrit means a great man. It doesn’t mean anything else. One who is great, mentally, morally, spiritually. Rishi [seer] means something else, tapasvi [one who meditates] means something else. Illaya? [Isn’t it?] Master is just a common word used, like you say, school-master. We call him also ‘guru’ in Tamil. So, this is a guru of a different field, that’s all.

Reporter: Can you tell us what pranahuti or transmission is?

Master: Pranahuti my Guruji has defined very simply as the utilisation of divine energy for the transformation of man. These things you must quote exactly, if you don’t mind.

Reporter: Definitely. What do you think of the state of the world today?

Master: No, we have nothing to do with politics. My Masters, you know, both Babuji Maharaj and Lalaji Maharaj, said, “The state of the world is what we create it to be. There is no such thing as the state of the world.” What is the state of the population? If there is terrorism, this and that, it is a disturbed population. Who makes it disturbed? We! So my Master used to be asked, “What are you doing just sitting with closed eyes? You could as well work for society.” He said, “Do you know what I am working for?” Somebody asked, “What?” He said, “I am working for humanity. You are working for society; I am working for humanity. Because, if I am able to put peace in human hearts, that is the highest service that you can do to human beings.” Today what is happening in the world? Somebody buys weapons, another power buys more weapons. Isn’t it? Bigger weapons; even bigger weapons. Powerful weapons; even more powerful weapons. You have seen this over the last sixty, seventy years. What is happening? Pakistan arms itself, we arm ourselves better. They buy American things, we buy Russian things. Is this going to end the war?

Reporter: Now both are getting weapons from America itself.

Master: No, wherever it may be. And they are helping to arm us so that, we will fight and destroy ourselves. This is like the Brahmaastra, of the Mahabharata; Ashvatthama had one, Arjuna had one. What was the result? Both had to abandon finally, you know. And the one who was not willing to abandon, Krishna cursed him. What did Krishna say? “You will wander on the face of this earth till the end of time.” Poor Ashvatthama, he may be here, who knows. We don’t know. Can you have a worse curse than that? Why? Because of his arrogance, he said no. Arjuna bowed and withdrew his weapon. Now, today are we able to do it? We are fear-ridden, you see. You buy one rifle, I buy two. I spend two thousand rupees, you spend three thousand rupees. What is the use? Where is the peace?

Reporter: What is your vision of the future?

1. Master: Our vision—we don’t have a vision of the future as such. The future of the vision has always been the past of the vision as was at the time of creation. You know, the history of our yugas [aeons], how periodically a yuga is a deterioration of the previous one, until Kali Yuga is the worst. If there is a vision, it can be only to re-introduce or transform the present situation into one that was, let us say, the Treta Yuga, the Dvaapara Yuga, Sathya Yuga, where there was peace, there was plenty, there was shanti. Human welfare is not in its material welfare. It is in its internal welfare: when the heart is calm, when there is peace in the heart, when there is contentment, which is most important. If I am not content, I want my neighbour’s property, I want a car like this man, I want a position like that man. When this [points to the heart] is content, I have no problems with me, either myself or with my nature or my country or my world.

Reporter: You have celebrated the Diamond Jubilee here [in Tiruppur]. You have your centres all over the world, but comparatively it is a little known city…

Master: You mean Tiruppur?

Reporter: Yes. Is there any special reason for which…

Master: For spirituality, there is no chosen place. Spirituality is where we put it. Like you know, if you plant mangoes, it is a mango garden. If it is coconut, it is a coconut grove. Spirituality belongs everywhere. There is no special place for it. No small, no great. Spirituality is. For religion, they have to look whether this place is suitable for a temple, whether the vibration is right. You follow? We believe in bringing the right vibration, not looking for it. Therefore, we chose Tiruppur.

Reporter: What is your message to our readers?

Master: I wouldn’t presume to give any message. I would only say what the Vedas have said, you know: Arise, awake and rest not till the goal is achieved. We are all sleepers, because in a very real sense, we are run by our samskaras. What is the difference between people? Why is it that people of the same intellect, intelligence—one is a doctor, one is a politician, one is a newspaper owner, one is a governor. What makes it? He will say, “I wanted it.” Why did you want it? Why did you want to be a doctor? Something in you makes [you that]. We call this karma.

So we are expressions of our karma. In our system we say this karma, which we call samskara, can be completely removed, leaving only a little thing to keep you alive. Then comes the true expression of the soul, which has no desire, which has no aspiration, which has no, shall we say, temporal worldly goals. It works for the betterment of all. And this ‘all’ means all life, not only human beings, not only Indians, not only Brahmins or Kshatriyas or Vaishyas—all, which is what religion says in its prayer. “May there be bliss on earth”—“sarvejana sukhino bhavantu.” But nobody means it. We mean it here, you see. How do you know we mean it? Because you look at people who are here.

We have Russians, we have Lithuanians, we have Danes, Danish people, Swiss, French—name them, they are here, even today. Why do they come to Tiruppur? Most of them did not know where Tiruppur is. Isn’t it? And you see how they are living in tents. And look at the marvel of what we could administer. We brought water, we brought electricity, we brought even a communication tower so that cell phones would work. People had simple food but good food. And they are all happy. Do you see anybody miserable here? Why is there this happiness? It is not because we make them comfortable or gave them comfortable beds or air-conditioned their tents. There are people who do it—air-condition tents! We gave them an atmosphere which calmed them, which brought that comfort, from inside. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Join us and see what you feel. I am not joking.

Abhyasi: Master, I have no question other than to say that I am one of those who looked upon coming to Tiruppur as a sacred ordeal, with emphasis, at first, on ‘ordeal’. You had written to me when I was asking to bring my young son, and you said it was going to be 30,000 perhaps, and heat, and dust and mosquitoes…

Master: You know, what our friend here says is true. But today we have this, shall we say, psychological way of acceptance, where you buy an expensive thing and you feel it looks good, where you stay in a five-star hotel. I have never been more uncomfortable than in a five-star hotel. I used to sleep on the carpet, because the beds are too soft, it gives me a backache. The only thing I like about a five-star hotel is the bathroom, you know. Now you see people going shopping today. When the person doesn’t like what is given because it is only twenty rupees, he says, “Show me something better.” He means more expensive. He is impressed by something which costs eighty-five rupees.

“Have you got something which is even better?” The shopkeeper knows he has got a stupid fellow who is buying from him. “You know that thing which came yesterday from Timbuktu? Eduthutu vaa—bring it.” “Sir, this is very special, I am holding it in reserve.” “Yes, I’ll take it.” Today, we fool ourselves into feeling that we are more comfortable, we have better lives, our houses are better because we spend more, not because we are comfortable from inside. And the better off you are in the material way, you are more afraid of thieves, more afraid of robbery, more afraid of political disturbance, more afraid of what the next party which comes to power will do. Today, no man has good sleep. No man. And the powers that be, they don’t sleep at all.

‘Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown,’ has been said for centuries. The first worry of the politician who is just elected is, “How to ensure my next election?” Is it or is it not? So, what is life, you tell me? And in between he is doing nothing but running around, collecting money, bribing people, to ensure that he is elected next, promising that: “If I am elected again, I will do good for the people.” And we have heard this enough. So, no way which attracts or promises you uplift, betterment by giving you more schools, more hospitals, is going to work. It must come from here [points to the heart], if you can teach people to live simply, [to] be in tune with Nature, as one of the Sahaj Marg maxims says.

1. ‘Arise at dawn.’ [Nowadays] we don’t teach people to arise at dawn. We put them in five-star hotels where they have alarms to wake up at eight o’ clock and run off at eight-five, holding their bowels. So how is there going to be peace when I am not in the toilet because I have a meeting at 8:15? But you don’t tell them [to] ‘Wake up early’. So we have to re-introduce the natural cycle of the human life. Arise at dawn, go to sleep after sunset. But today, the day doesn’t end even at midnight. Family should be the first school. But everybody is too busy earning a good living so that they can leave more for their children, while the children are going to the dogs because nobody looks after them. Moral instruction should start from the cradle but, we have no time for it, [no time] to look after our children. Isn’t it? So where is society going? We are trying to put it back on its track.

We have recently taken interest in a school in Madras also, you see. This Mission runs or offers what we call value-based education. We have our own syllabus. We train teachers. We offer education through trained teachers, and this is going on all over India, and it is producing results.

Reporter: What is the future plan of the Mission?

Master: The future plan of the Mission is to keep going until we see saints everywhere. Not saints who are made, like in the Christian Church. Six hundred years after a man dies, he is made a saint! You know the Catholic Church—six hundred, seven hundred years later you publish some miracles and say, “He is now a saint.” He was not a saint when he was alive. He is a saint seven hundred years after he’s dead.

In our Mission saintliness means a perfect balanced existence. No exaggeration in any direction. He is not a scholar, he is not a musician, he is not a materialist, he is not even a spiritualist. He is so balanced that you can only say of him, “He is a balanced person.” So, there is no anger in him, there is no softness in him, there is no hardness in him. He is a human being as nature intended him to be. He can assume anger when he wants, but he is never angry himself. All that he is, is love, which is God. So, he doesn’t love any more. You cannot say, “God loves me.” God is love. Because He is love, I feel His love. You cannot say, “God loves this or that or that. God loves only Christians. God loves only Sudras”—you cannot say. God is love. Whoever goes to God feels that love and then we become that love, you see. This is the final thing that I have to say about Sahaj Marg.

Reporter: Thank you sir.

Master: Thank you.

Reporter: I am very grateful.

Master: No, no, no, please I am grateful that you thought it worth your while to come and see me. My blessings.

Reporter: Thank you.